LifeWorks Today Podcast → 10 Leaders Driving Culture Change

Welcome To Life Works today this podcast is provided so that together we can create a world in which all people love their lives our current human systems aren’t working the way of superior versus inferior or management versus employee or adult versus child we need a powerful positive and sustainable transformation this podcast is for you who seek to be happy fulfilled and peaceful so that your Abundant Life Works

today Welcome To Life Works today this podcast is designed to provide stories and information to help those who are listening in any role that want to expand their potential we invite guests on our program who are committed to personal and professional growth so I have a very important guest I’m going to be introducing you to Jeffrey howlet goes by Jeff he’s an independent principal agile coach so he’s had a lot of experience in a lot of different organizations Jeff has a 30 plus year career in medical and Health Care technology holding a variety of positions in Engineering Process and program management product management and agile lean organizational transformation so today I’m going to be asking Jeff four questions designed to help our listeners understand the forces that lead Jeff to a life of service and mean and hopefully this will help you also understand how the most successful and generous people think and how they operate so in asking questions of of Jeff ahead of time I’m going to tell you a little bit about what he’s most passionate about and how I sort of unfolded that if hopefully I did it in a in a way he’d agree with but it’s about leaders driving culture change Jeff told me I’m particularly passionate about ensuring especially in the difficult times that we’re in now that leaders are keenly aware of how they set the standard and they drive culture in an organization and how we need to be sure that we’re drivers of the cultures of transparency openness and inclusiveness in order to fully harness the creative power of an entire team this is particularly true in organizations that claim to be agile and talk about having a learning culture and being Innovative creating environments where people can safely express ideas and fail forward and these are critical to that and are very fragile to maintain and I would say they’re also a little bit fragile to build at times and so this is a a a topic that I’m also passionate about so I’m really looking forward to uh letting Jeff talk to you before we start I do want to give you a couple quotes that made me think of what Jeff shared with me about this passion for leaders to drive culture and the first one is by Peter Ducker and it’s the greatest danger in times of tur turbulence and God knows we have turbulence right now is not the turbulence it is to act with yesterday’s logic so that kind of fits in with that quote I often share about how we uh we fail to look at our behavior and our belief systems that they could be outdated so that’s the real danger is not realizing that yesterday’s logic may need to be updated and the other one was by John Cotter who’s a professor of leadership at Harvard Business School and he’s also a best-selling author and he said the rate of change is not going to slow down anytime soon if anything competition in most Industries will probably speed up even more in the next few decades and that’s why I wanted a thought leader and a change agent like Jeff howlet on this program because he probably could have written these quotes himself and so they say a lot about what he’s doing not only in agile but also in the world of people systems so Jeff go ahead and if you would just introduce your yourself in any way you want to add anything and then just set the stage for our listeners around the question what purpose values and vision do you have for success in your life and work hey Judy yeah glad to be here and you know you couldn’t have chosen you know two more fantastic quotes I hope to lead into this I mean those are both great guys guys I’ve read a lot from and you know kind of admire um so really appreciate you bringing bringing them there um I think for myself you know really you know I started out as an engineer a software engineer you know way way back when now it feels like and uh you know like a lot of Engineers you know I started out you know wanting to to make cool stuff using cool technology and um you know learn some need things along the way and you know that was all good and I feel like I did a lot of that but I I realized early in my career that um what gets in the way most of of Engineers you know any creative knowledge worker real it isn’t the technology it’s not the skills they need to learn it it’s usually the systems that they have to operate in are are where they they they find the greatest Edam you know kind of to achieving what they want to achieve for themselves so that’s kind of why you know my career I made this shift into management you know because I realized that you got to change those systems from the inside out um you know and I wanted to get in a position where I could really influence those and you know kind started taking on you know kind of that journey of saying you know how how do we make these leadership structures these organizational cultures these ways of working more conducive to creative people really achieving the full potential that they want to achieve and that the organizations want them to achieve you started out by saying I’m I was an engineer in software development and then you started wanting to move into the leadership levels in your talking about systems you’re really talking about two kind of systems you’re talking about software systems or Andor Business Systems but also the people systems is what I’m hearing you say right that kind of have to develop by hitting the wall all the time because I know a lot of Engineers they don’t even realize the inpersonal right they um that is absolutely true and they don’t and um you know you know tragically you know one one of the places where we kind of fail our our engineers in a lot of cases is you know quite often engineering managers come from Stellar Engineers you know I see people that that execute and build you know great stuff high quality they demonstrate good teamwork those things and then you know the assumption is made well we’re going to advance their career by making them a manager and that’s actually not a career advancement that’s a career shift right I mean that’s a totally different skill set and and that’s something I did realize you know actually early and you know my journey you know from there you know said well if I’m going to do this I have to adopt a completely different skill set start learning and like most people my failures taught me the most along the way I’m sure any of my friends and colleagues that are listening to this will remember times when I blew it big time uh but you know we we learn through our failures and I hope I hope you know I’ve learned through mine as well can you share maybe one thing that you learned from something like that and if you want to tell us the failure you can but you don’t I think um you I think some of the valuable lessons I learned is you know yeah I’m I’m a strong personality like a lot of like a lot of people you know in the in the technology you know space and just learning you know how to how to really use the empathy how to develop some some emotional intelligence to really uh one of my favorite books is you know crucial conversations you know learning how to put yourself in someone else’s shoes to walk backwards in their Journey journey to understand where they’re coming from so you can actually find ground to make win-win situations I mean these are all you know techniques that I think you know successful leaders need in their tool belt um you know there there was a day way back when when we were in command and control situations where leaders had to be strong people they were decisive decision makers uh they pointed and people walked um and we’re not in that world anymore like conter said changes happening uh no one person can be on top of it all the time well and Jeff I love that you’re you’re talking about the shift from command and control I would also say some of the best leaders that have moved into this stage of our evolution in culture are also firm and decisive but they’re firm and decisive about shared power about helping everybody rise like you said to winwin which is so like I think a lot of people think if we don’t use the autocratic man and control people are just going to be Namby pambi and that’s not at all what you or anyone else that really understands this work yeah is doing yep and I I think the real the real key there is strength through strategy and vision versus strength through tactics and you know management right I mean micromanagement is what I get at when I say management I mean you know and this is you know I just recently heard some interesting Talks by Admiral Richardson I’m I’m sure you’re familiar with who he is a very distinguished Naval career you know he makes a point that you know increasingly because of the technology and the World Theater we have to move to more distributed integrated command structures where you know forces will will not be you know collected in one place where they can easily collaborate and receive vertical Direction continuously they have to be given the bigger picture being given the mission and then be expected to operate and execute on the on the periphery that’s why when we talk about leadership development and life work systems we talk about developing people from the top all the way to the bottom because I think a lot of organizations still can’t fathom that you could do that in a Distributive way it but it’s kind of like in the days when we thought it’s not possible for us all to have a desktop computer or all of us to have a cell phone I mean it’s just it’s just poor thinking that it can’t be fully distributed today with technology and everything that we have so you know and it doesn’t really matter how old a leader is if a leader is persuadable if a leader is able to learn new things because they’re not so convinced that I’ve already got the truth I’ve got a lock on it it and it’s all done you know and and so that’s what I really admire about him is that he is a person that’s constantly aware of where the future is going and I think that’s why I picked you to be on this podcast Jeff because I think you’re also very aware of what’s Happening Now and what’s coming next can you tell us a little bit about your vision for Success how what is the one you you operate from sure so I think you know that’s one of the things that Drew me very strongly to the agile ways of working is that um you know one of the best ways to help Engineers feel engaged I mean I love Daniel pink stuff you know the whole autonomy Mastery purpose you know and and we put a lot of emphasis on the the aut on the Mastery you know oh we’ll give them tools we’ll give them training classes all of that then there’s the purpose what are they doing you how do we give teams visibility to the Horizon so they know where they’re going because cuz I don’t know about you could you drive a could you drive to the store if you couldn’t see more than 10 feet ahead of you of course not you gota able to see what’s coming so you can anticipate react plan for the future you know that’s what we need to give people and adile systems agile tools and techniques try to do that but there’s also the the kind of the autonomy and what we were just talking about you know you Empower them because they’re the ones closest to the problems that you’re solving you know they’re the smart people um you know give them the latitude to figure out how to do it and then create a culture around them where you know they can experiment they can take the risk they can you know work through their uncertainty and mistakes will happen and making it safe for them to make mistakes without it being a catastrophe right I think a lot of people were raised where if they made a mistake they thought they were gonna get fired well those are those guard reels you know and and and it’s important you know because you know we’re people we need boundaries we need to know you know where the limits are we need to know where my authority ends and begins um I’ve always looked at things like ownership and empowerment as flip sides of the coin of accountability and responsibility you can’t have one without the other um if you’re going if you’re going to take ownership for something you are accountable for its outcome if you’re going to be empowered for something I’m responsible to follow through on that but I do need to know where my limits are to we always say that people need to be both resp responsible and free because that’s also a component like yes we do need to be if we own it we need to be accountable to it but we also need to remember that that’s the most Freedom we can have when we become accountable our freedom can go higher because the two need to go together otherwise you either have Anarchy or you have authoritarianism you know and neither of those feels good to any would that be your vision Jeff that people become empowered is that kind of what your your focus is because I look at purpose not necessarily where you’re going today or the next five years but more like what is the overall thing I want to cause what’s the trajectory so what is that for you yeah yeah I think we’re I think empowerment is it but I think at the at the core of empowerment is trust um and that’s that’s one of the really big things you know kind of in the space of psychological safety clearly is trust right you know that that leaders and are walk in their talk you know that that they believe they want a culture a certain way they have a set of values you know that they are embodying that you know and they’re showing the employees you know what model what example you know to be following uh reinforcing the good behaviors that drive those values um maybe providing some uh you know feedback on behaviors that uh don’t support the values um you know and that’s the that’s where leaders are really responsible now and they have to set the vision for for the company sure but you have to set the vision for you know the the the value vales and the behaviors that that you want to be behind that because increasingly today how you do something is as important as what you do that’s where really the biggest thought leaders are all kind of in convergence Jeff when you think about what you’re trying to accomplish not only in agile Transformations but transformational leadership models you’re really bringing both simultaneously what are some of the barriers that you you encounter in the work you’re doing in companies and and anything that you in one of the biggest barriers sometimes you just run into is just just pure human nature you know in some cases I mean you know a lot of leaders like we mentioned you know have have gotten to where they are you know because they had results um you know doing things the way that they did them um you know and they see themselves in a certain way they they want to see their role in the organization in a certain way and sometimes you know what we’re asking leaders to do is take a step back you know take a different approach you know give away some of that you know visible status give away some of that positional Authority you know to other people and trust them you know to to use their knowledge and creativity to deliver results that can be challenging for people I mean one of the biggest issues we run into in agile organizations especially in the middle of these organizations is maintaining relevance you know they ask themselves what’s my role now how do I stay relevant in the organ organization and helping them understand they’re no less important yes what they’re doing will be different and the way they have to approach it is different and the way you have to work the people is different but just assuring them that their relevance is not at risk what I see and I always say this is that the top leaders have to have a particularly positive powerful ego that isn’t threatened by reidentifying with something else because I think a lot of these really high Executives they’re kind of fat and happy in the sense that I right and now I’m putting all that at risk to do something that I’m not even 100% sure what I’m doing it is a lot to ask for them and I think you’re absolutely right that if you can paint the picture that they’re not only going to be relevant they’re going to be more relevant because they’re going to be able to help their go into the next next uh Evolution what are the processes and the mindsets and the things that you do that help you to get past all of that well it it it can be challenging and I think ultimately you know whenever you go through any type of change management any type of transformation you know you have to start with the outcomes what are you really trying to achieve here um what is the goal of the transformation what business objectives are you trying to optimize what problem points are you trying to eliminate or reduce right and if you can get agreement you know on that ground that the these are the things um then you’ve got you’ve got that space you know to work in that you can you can kind of keep bringing things back to those OB Ives people have personal and private you know goals and objectives and you know self images and things like that and sometimes you have to talk in that language too like you say it’s like you want to be seen as this this is how that fits in here right and and in all honesty you know and we have to be honest about it not everybody fits in every transformed organization either right and and sometimes you know sometimes you know hopefully it’s a small number but every now and then it’s about having the conversation to say that doesn’t fit here helping someone find a new opportunity I think sometimes that is really true what you’re saying um but I also think learning how to have the language of human systems that’s what we call them how people think speak act and then you know and feel and then act on there also needs to be an understanding that most of us should have learned some of these skills when we were in grade school just like we learned multiplication and division and addition and subtraction you know if we had one of those out we’d be we’d be pretty lost on certain things that are just expected of an adult and the same is really true around this so a lot of times I’m surprised when people learn these emotional intelligence skills how people are actually able to stay because they just lacked the information and the experience with it um sometimes people are just not even willing to learn and they do need to go I want to make sure that I take a minute here about halfway through I always try to remind the listeners that life work systems is here for you we specialize in Performance Management through the healthy culture transformation or sometimes people just take a course and then they take another course but ideally it’s through healthy culture transformation so go to our website and learn more about us and how you can get involved with us including access to the information related to today’s episode and to future episodes so you can find us at life work systemsis plural.com sub subscribe to our podcast and find the main points on each podcast we invite you to also join our mailing list so that you receive information on free videos webinars articles surveys assessments my book how to contact us by phone or email so just about anything you want is on that website and when you go to our website and you look at the details of this episode you’re going to find resources that we’ll share with you so welcome back to the program everybody with Jeff howlet Jeff I’ve just got another question for you here so when you said that you’re one of the things you do is you get the Buy in from the executives is that something you do do you feel like you have a way that you do that that is successful for you and was that a learning process for you to get to that if you did no it it’s definitely a learning process and again it’s it’s about building the relationship building the trust you know and understanding that at the end of the day it’s about making them more successful yeah you know you don’t do transformation for transformation sake you don’t do change for change’s sake there’s some driver there’s some issue there’s some concern that’s that’s prompting the need to change um you know cter wrote that book hey our iceberg is melting remember that one with the Penguins you know somebody saw a problem they saw an issue you know then you know you’ve got to go build the Coalition you got to build the consensus you got to do that there’s there’s no recipe for that it’s about understanding the people you know their their uh you know personal goals and agendas the business goals and agendas um you know and helping leaders understand how to align you know those things I mean I’ve seen it where a leader will talk a culture they’re not walking the culture yeah and help them get get back into alignment well the reason I asked that question Jeff is that a lot of times we we talk to Agile coaches and Consultants a fair amount because they’re some of our best partners and and it’s so cool because you guys already philosophically align with the world view of culture that we have so it’s always like talking in shorthand but one of the barriers that I hear a lot of them say is they come in and they’re assigned to help bring agile in and then the executives kind of think of it is that’s not my part you know how do you get those Executives to go see themselves as part of the entirety of it instead of just saying oh you’re the tech people that need to do this agile thing over here well and this is the you know the there’s thech technical agility you know that you you bring to say development teams and you’re working those development value streams and even some operational value streams but then there’s the business agility how does the business itself you know operate more with an agile mindset and I think that’s where the leaders is most has to be most engaged it’s in the mindset you know understanding what it means to be an agile business what it means to you know create empowerment what it means to have decentralized decision making how to create those accountability structures because you I mean uh we’re all people uh it’s great to empower and delegate but you have to trust and then verify right um so I mean leaders have to know what’s going on how do I engage with these communication structures without dominating them and overwhelming them yes um that’s one of the hardest things that that leaders have to do is understanding how toage engage with these methods and approaches and let them do what they were intended to do supporting them working through their outcomes but remaining engaged so that they are aware they are knowledgeable if they’re input and you know intervention in some cases is required they can do that in a timely and effective way yeah if I have a question for you that I imagine a lot of viewers might have um not everybody but some some think of agile and think of the technology but when you talk about a business agility can you give an example like I always give an example for that so people understand what it means to have Enterprise agility as opposed to just software development agile practices can you give an ex because it’s really about pivoting an organization to meet whatever the market is calling next it might be a pandemic or something else right so how do you explain that when you’re trying to help people get the mindset of your company needs to be agile you know real agility is you know you get down to the core of it every business has to deliver value you know we have to know how to do that what’s my value proposition to my customers my partners whatever type of business that I am and understanding that we we live increasingly in a world of uncertainty you know we we don’t know all the answers up front and by the time we can learn all the answers up front the questions have changed you know so so you know we’re constantly faced with that and it’s about how do I start taking small ground delivering value in small manageable increments learning from what I’ve done and then being able to like I say ruthlessly prioritize or pivot mercilessly to always keep the organization focused on delivering that that value and I think you know for example when covid hit you know you know you take a health care space where maybe you know your predominant you know way of interacting with your patients is in person you know say you’re working with you know this this is an example from my previous life you’re working with you know kids that have developmental disabilities well now you can’t go visit them they can’t come to a center you can’t go to their home how do you do that well that requires you have to reimagine your your treatment practices and a lot of ways you have to reimagine that your business you know how you build you know for these Services you know I can’t get a parent signature now how how do I how do I build for that how do so now all of a sudden you’ve got to reimagine and you’ve got to do that fast or you’re not going to survive je wouldn’t it be fair to say there are some organizations whether it was a school or a company like working with disabled children no matter what that organization is if they’ve already got a mindset that I I need to be ready to Pivot in case something comes in because change is happening so quickly they’re going to have a much easier time of it than than someone that even thought about it and then it’s really a mad scram right yeah but but you know there’s some things I think in any business you you you tend to take for granted there’s certain things you count on being stable and I think Co threw a lot of those things into into the tornado right um so now you got to reimagine that and you can’t like I say reimagine it all instantly so you’ve got to try things you got to try things you got to see how they work if those things work you build them you scale them if those things don’t work you throw them on the ground and you try something new until you reinvent your model piece by piece by piece by piece you know and that that’s what I think the spirit of agility is is is you do it’s the whole pdca thing you try something how well did that work that worked great do more of it that didn’t work well ditch that plan something else yeah and what you’re describing is a person that has confidence that isn’t overly concerned about getting it right all the time that has a a bit of a daring spirit so if you don’t have psychological safety you don’t have that people just start clamming up playing it safe so um how do you keep from going into that place because that that’s something we all have to battle I think even those of us leading others in this so what kind of processes like philosophies or practices or mindsets drive you to stay in that place of almost like more curiosity and compassion than fear and self-judgment as an example so how do you do that what are the things you do I know you read a lot and you read really good authors and that helps that definitely helps you know there’s there’s a lot of smarter people out there than I am you know people that done a ton of this stuff you know picking it up but at the end of the day you’ve got to kind of live it and you know a big part of it is sometimes you look at a Sit have to look at a situation you know with your colleagues and say seriously what’s the worst that could happen you know you take the agility thing you you got a two week Sprint you can’t screw up more than two weeks you know so take the chance you know what’s the worst thing can happen and then you know it’s like well do I have enough eyes on the field that I can tell when something going wrong you know can you know do I have the confidence that if it starts to go south I can actually figure figure that out and and take action on it right so it’s about visibility transparency you know measurement um it’s about you know that whole safety we talked about you know there’s the there’s the learning safety which means you know hey I can I can learn something new make a few mistakes along the way but then there’s also I can contribute with safety do we have any bad ideas you know if I if I put out a really radical idea um people gonna think I’m stupid or I don’t care if my idea is not adopted maybe it’s just not the right time for it but I should I should be able to lead with any relevant you know idea and maybe there’s a gold nugget in there maybe there’s not yes but if you don’t have an environment where those ideas can come out you’ll never know yeah or even are encouraged you know uh the idea that well we’ve always done it this way as opposed to making space for anybody got any crazy ideas I love that that you put it that way it reminds me of when I had a bad day and I said I’m going for the [ __ ] award it just help me relax and get through it you uh so that’s one of my processes that I do it from time to time anything else that you personally go to that helps you be effective like I I mean a simple one that I have is I go to nature I mean that’s just my own thing when I’m really like caught up in something I’ll just get out in the woods do you have any internal things that you do and it doesn’t have to be like mine but just anything that you say gosh that brings me back to Center again no I think uh you know I think we all do need the time away um you know definitely you know when we got a recenter you know like that I go out for hikes you I do things like that you know got my music that I can tap into a little bit you know sometimes just digging into one of my diry books you know was a good way to escape said you like to cook is that one of them too does that get you out of your head a little bit more into the food and I like trying something new you know getting in there just trying something I haven’t done before and again what’s the Worst That Could Happen well i’ I’ve added some more weight to the recycling bin right um the best thing that can happen well you never know um but I think also it’s just about you know back in the workplace again leaving one thing that I found incredibly important is one of these scoping things is this notion of radical cander is something that I believe is really important because ultimately I think we’re we’re ultimately in a fully psychologically safe place when we can challenge each other in a constructive professional way I mean I can learn and make mistakes I can contribute new ideas but if we can call things out get the problems out on the table safely you know and and understand that we need to come together to do that if I can challenge the organization a and challenge the people around me in a positive constructive way we’re kind of at that place now where probably not much can get in our way in terms of problems to solve and goals to achieve dealing with this on a political level a personal level a church level a social level a family level I mean everybody needs to know how to do this and and so when you can have those Really Brave conversations that are not easy and it doesn’t diminish everybody that’s something that a lot of people don’t seem to know how to do anywhere and and it’s just really unfortunate oh oh it’s terrifying Judy it really is because and I think that’s one of the things that we’re we’re getting into a little bit of trouble with now as we started to understand psychological safety we start to equate safety with lack of conflict with lack of you know confrontation and that’s not what it means it means that we can confront in a constructive and positive way where both sides can achieve a win-win I think that’s the key to me with radical cander is that I have the other person’s best interest at heart not my own agenda not making myself feel better but I want to make you the person that I’m talking to or working with I want to make you successful by doing I actually think we do I do that in in two twofold I make them and everything they want important by not deciding that I have to fix them convert them heal them or change them but I also do um make a space to disclose who I am and what I’m going through and what my opinion is so that it’s a mutual thing where neither of us is trying to fix and convert each other that’s when you really have win-win because I see a lot of people trying to give to the other side but not really ever saying hey I also want something over here you know so it’s a really fine balance of making sure that that can only happen if you stop trying to change each other and that’s really I think a big part people like how do you do it if you’re not trying to get a influence somebody your way well there is another way to do it but most people just don’t even know how to do that right so yeah and I think you know as we about safety I think we we get trapped in an attitude of neness yes you know and and we forget that nice doesn’t really get you anywhere um you know we want to be respectful we want to be professional you know we wna you know have good relationships with people but I’ve always said that the the most respect I can give my colleague is to be honest with them and I think you’re right it’s not about changing them but if we understand that there are outcomes at stake what can we together or individually do differently to better align the way we approach situations with achieving the outcomes we agree are the important ones to achieve yeah yeah that’s exactly it and and you know it’s kind of like the words soft skills that just irks me um because people think it’s a soft thing being nice all the time I I have an article I’ve got the title for it’s just when nice is mean because sometimes being nice is the most inauthentic genuine thing so what I love about what you’re saying is that like with soft skills I think they should be called power skills because there’s nothing soft about them sometimes it takes like ruthless courage to live from that place so yeah so awesome it’s so awesome to hear you saying similar things is there anything in particular that you still want to say in this interview or anything else you want to say to the audience you know I think I think just closing I think we also want to recognize that every organization is there’s two directions right I mean EMP employees have an expectation of their leaders you know to give that Vision put forward a culture live that culture treat me with honesty and respect but I just want to also remind that leaders yes you have to do that you you are the role models in the organization your people are watching and what you do or don’t do speaks much louder to them than what you say or what you email or the posters you put on the wall um nothing will break that trust faster than incongruity on your part um so just be congruous and be honest if if you’re if you’re not going to have a value in the workplace don’t pretend to have it just be honest with everybody you’re not going to do that and then let them decide if that’s right for them but it goes on employees too that they have to hold up their end of this also they got to give their leaders a chance they got to understand leaders are people um they have challenges they have things they’re doing with uh be honest with them be open with them every relationship actually starts with a leap of faith trust comes later you know I think if we give each other the benefit of the doubt a bit more and then let that history and experience and actions we see create the trust give your leaders a benefit of the doubt give them the information give them your feedback and then decide what you’re GNA do based on how they respond to it yeah and and Jee I love that you say it all comes from the top down I mean that that’s true and also comes from the bottom up at the same time but for those of you that are listening that may not be in leadership but you are you know yourself as an influencer and you have that confidence just remember the reason that we’re having je on this show is because he’s the kind of person that can help you bridge the gap who can help you connect the dots with those executive leaders maybe the executive leaders don’t realize what they need as much as you do listening to Jeff today so if that’s the the case you might want to just get in touch with Jeff or you might want to just go to your boss and say oh my gosh I want you to hear this podcast because this is what I’ve been thinking we need and I want you to be aware that there’s people out there that can help you with this so with that Jeff I’m going to ask you to share all of your contact data like your phone number or website or whatever you’re comfortable sharing so that people can get a hold of you and find out what would be my next step if I wanted to bring this to my boss or if I’m the boss what’s my next step with you Jeff so that I even understand what that process would look like so the best place to reach me first is on LinkedIn you want to know his name has two L’s in the middle and two T’s at the end so it’s Hallet h a l l TT and I don’t know if you have Jeff on your LinkedIn or if you have Jeffrey I can’t remember my contact is there yep I’m open to messages there contact me like that and then we can strike up a dialogue and if we need to have a phone call or a zoom or something else we can we can sort that out from there awesome that’s great thank you Jeff and I hope that everybody take some time to go and look at this podcast and check in with Jeff so thank you for listening to Life Works today this is to you Jeff but also to all of our listeners I want to thank you Jeff for being the guest today and I appreciate that you have brought such intelligence and thoughtful insights and I’m sure the people that are listening to this podcast appreciate that about you as well this podcast was brought to you by life work systems the intent is to provide you with hope and new ideas and I know Jeff has brought some of that to the surface thank you for listening to Life Works today this podcast has been brought to you by life work system CEO and host Judy Ryan the intent of this podcast is to provide you with hope and new ideas for Greater Joy in your life and work for more information on our organization and earlier podcast episodes related articles videos and more please visit our website at Lifeworks systems.com be sure to subscribe to our podcast and mailing list we invite you to join us in creating a world in which all people love their lives and where your life works today